This conversation went somewhere I wasn't expecting. @steveruizok was about to start at Adobe. Job accepted. Bags packed. Start date: Monday. Then he looked at his side project @tldraw - an open-source canvas tool - and realized 200,000 people were using it every month. He called Adobe and said he wasn't coming. Steve's background is in fine art, not engineering. Before he was coding, he’d spent thousands of hours studying ink on paper. And that weird, non-obvious background is exactly why TLDraw's drawing experience feels different from everything else out there. We got into why he killed his own SaaS product to bet on the SDK, his framework for when craft actually converts into revenue, and the concept of "unmotivated work" - putting in hours on problems with no clear payoff because your gut says something is there. New episode of State of Play out now. It’s a good one.